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	<title>Comments on: We don&#8217;t need no stinkin&#8217; passion!</title>
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	<description>A different view of software testing</description>
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		<title>By: Brent Paine</title>
		<link>http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/03/28/we-dont-need-no-stinkin-passion/#comment-1416</link>
		<dc:creator>Brent Paine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:41:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/03/28/we-dont-need-no-stinkin-passion/#comment-1416</guid>
		<description>I laughed a little, I cried a little. I always seem to start reading articles like this just as I&#039;m loading my gun. Then it&#039;s like I return to some sort of baseline and I gain some sort of zen in knowing that everyone else has it bad too :) Do SQAs just dislike people in general!?!?

Anyway, as far as recruiting goes, I have a large contingent of interns that work on my team. It&#039;s actually a great thing! A lot of the time you get pretty good people and they still have a spark of life in them. Plus, the ones that work out well and are willing to come back for a second term, are on that satisfying course to becoming an SQA. So once they&#039;re done school, you&#039;ve groomed them to be the best damn tester that anyone has ever seen! So if you have an opening, you will also, usually, have an opportunity to bring some of those fresh minds back into the organization on a full-time basis. I mean you spent time training them, so you should at least get first crack at them! :)

&lt;em&gt;Thanks for the comment Brent, always nice to know I can make people cry a little. Interns sound like an interesting idea - a lot of work - but since I started in a similar way, it always seemed like a win-win situation.&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I laughed a little, I cried a little. I always seem to start reading articles like this just as I&#8217;m loading my gun. Then it&#8217;s like I return to some sort of baseline and I gain some sort of zen in knowing that everyone else has it bad too :) Do SQAs just dislike people in general!?!?</p>
<p>Anyway, as far as recruiting goes, I have a large contingent of interns that work on my team. It&#8217;s actually a great thing! A lot of the time you get pretty good people and they still have a spark of life in them. Plus, the ones that work out well and are willing to come back for a second term, are on that satisfying course to becoming an SQA. So once they&#8217;re done school, you&#8217;ve groomed them to be the best damn tester that anyone has ever seen! So if you have an opening, you will also, usually, have an opportunity to bring some of those fresh minds back into the organization on a full-time basis. I mean you spent time training them, so you should at least get first crack at them! :)</p>
<p><em>Thanks for the comment Brent, always nice to know I can make people cry a little. Interns sound like an interesting idea &#8211; a lot of work &#8211; but since I started in a similar way, it always seemed like a win-win situation.</em></p>
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		<title>By: Question: Which applications do you use during interviews to &#8217;see&#8217; how candidates do exploratory testing?</title>
		<link>http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/03/28/we-dont-need-no-stinkin-passion/#comment-182</link>
		<dc:creator>Question: Which applications do you use during interviews to &#8217;see&#8217; how candidates do exploratory testing?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 06:19:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/03/28/we-dont-need-no-stinkin-passion/#comment-182</guid>
		<description>[...] the discussion about passion and interviewing testers I started to rethink how I conduct interviews and I think that in the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the discussion about passion and interviewing testers I started to rethink how I conduct interviews and I think that in the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Goucher</title>
		<link>http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/03/28/we-dont-need-no-stinkin-passion/#comment-165</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Goucher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:46:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/03/28/we-dont-need-no-stinkin-passion/#comment-165</guid>
		<description>For senior level tester positions, I abosolutely expect candidates to have a web precense regarding testing. The discussion is focused around passion for the craft. I know a number of really good testers without one, but I wouldn&#039;t call them &#039;passionate&#039;; just really good. Now, they might not have their own vanity domain but certainly a sporatically updated blog or thoughts on things captured in mailing list archives.

I counsel all new testers who come through one of my courses to get a web presence, and fast. It&#039;s one of the cheapest returns you can have when marketing yourself IMO.

&lt;em&gt;Thanks Adam. Hopefully people heed your advice. Unfortunately candidates then expect interviewers to have read their websites and the next thing you know we&#039;ll have testers writing blog posts like &quot;Company calls itself passionate about testing - they didn&#039;t even read my blog&quot;. So I hope you also prepare them for the reality that even though they will list their web info on their CV, many interviewers won&#039;t read it.&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For senior level tester positions, I abosolutely expect candidates to have a web precense regarding testing. The discussion is focused around passion for the craft. I know a number of really good testers without one, but I wouldn&#8217;t call them &#8216;passionate&#8217;; just really good. Now, they might not have their own vanity domain but certainly a sporatically updated blog or thoughts on things captured in mailing list archives.</p>
<p>I counsel all new testers who come through one of my courses to get a web presence, and fast. It&#8217;s one of the cheapest returns you can have when marketing yourself IMO.</p>
<p><em>Thanks Adam. Hopefully people heed your advice. Unfortunately candidates then expect interviewers to have read their websites and the next thing you know we&#8217;ll have testers writing blog posts like &#8220;Company calls itself passionate about testing &#8211; they didn&#8217;t even read my blog&#8221;. So I hope you also prepare them for the reality that even though they will list their web info on their CV, many interviewers won&#8217;t read it.</em></p>
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		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/03/28/we-dont-need-no-stinkin-passion/#comment-142</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 14:21:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/03/28/we-dont-need-no-stinkin-passion/#comment-142</guid>
		<description>I think you miss the point entirely of work - its a means to an end, rather than the sole reason for testing. The internet may be a force of good, but that doesn’t mean every tester needs to &quot;have a testing web presence.&quot; I would rather focus on professionalism - how well do they do their jobs?

Passion is great for the bedroom, but in the office, well...

&lt;em&gt;Hi Sam, thanks for taking the time to leave a comment. 

I too use work as a means to an end. At the very least, I use work to:
&lt;ul&gt;
	&lt;li&gt; help me improve my testing skills in a practical setting,&lt;/li&gt; 
        &lt;li&gt; add value to my clients and employers,&lt;/li&gt;
        &lt;li&gt; experiment with the various ideas that I have for approaching testing.&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;/ul&gt;

I don&#039;t know what &#039;end&#039; that you use work to achieve, so I can&#039;t comment on that.

I can honestly say that I don&#039;t know what you mean by &quot;rather than the sole reason for testing&quot; so I won&#039;t try and interpret what you have written and respond based on my interpretation, as I suspect that I would end up putting words into your mouth that you did not intend.

I do not expect every tester to have a web presence. I do use that approach as one of my pre-interview checks because I can honestly say that I enjoyed working with every tester with a web presence that I interviewed and hired. If anyone lists a web page on their CV then I look at it (sadly, many people who have interviewed me never visited my web page prior to interviews, despite its obvious presence on my CV).  So in practice I have found value from performing that check, even though most of the time it returns no information.

I perform all these searches to try and help me identify how well they &lt;strong&gt;might &lt;/strong&gt;do their job and help me sort the wheat from the chaff when reviewing CVs. I can only properly evaluate how well someone does their job when I work with them. As you can see from the blog post I continue to change the approach I use for interviews and pre-interview screening to attempt to do this better. 

Feel free to supply any hints that you have learned over the years to evaluate a candidate&#039;s professionalism when reading their CV or during an interview.
&lt;/em&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you miss the point entirely of work &#8211; its a means to an end, rather than the sole reason for testing. The internet may be a force of good, but that doesn’t mean every tester needs to &#8220;have a testing web presence.&#8221; I would rather focus on professionalism &#8211; how well do they do their jobs?</p>
<p>Passion is great for the bedroom, but in the office, well&#8230;</p>
<p><em>Hi Sam, thanks for taking the time to leave a comment. </p>
<p>I too use work as a means to an end. At the very least, I use work to:</p>
<ul>
<li> help me improve my testing skills in a practical setting,</li>
<li> add value to my clients and employers,</li>
<li> experiment with the various ideas that I have for approaching testing.</li>
</ul>
<p>I don&#8217;t know what &#8216;end&#8217; that you use work to achieve, so I can&#8217;t comment on that.</p>
<p>I can honestly say that I don&#8217;t know what you mean by &#8220;rather than the sole reason for testing&#8221; so I won&#8217;t try and interpret what you have written and respond based on my interpretation, as I suspect that I would end up putting words into your mouth that you did not intend.</p>
<p>I do not expect every tester to have a web presence. I do use that approach as one of my pre-interview checks because I can honestly say that I enjoyed working with every tester with a web presence that I interviewed and hired. If anyone lists a web page on their CV then I look at it (sadly, many people who have interviewed me never visited my web page prior to interviews, despite its obvious presence on my CV).  So in practice I have found value from performing that check, even though most of the time it returns no information.</p>
<p>I perform all these searches to try and help me identify how well they <strong>might </strong>do their job and help me sort the wheat from the chaff when reviewing CVs. I can only properly evaluate how well someone does their job when I work with them. As you can see from the blog post I continue to change the approach I use for interviews and pre-interview screening to attempt to do this better. </p>
<p>Feel free to supply any hints that you have learned over the years to evaluate a candidate&#8217;s professionalism when reading their CV or during an interview.<br />
</em></p>
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		<title>By: Marta</title>
		<link>http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/03/28/we-dont-need-no-stinkin-passion/#comment-106</link>
		<dc:creator>Marta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 09:20:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/03/28/we-dont-need-no-stinkin-passion/#comment-106</guid>
		<description>I find one of the main reasons why testers that I have interviewed (and worked with) in the past lack that passion is because they are not actually testers. This is particularly acute with people with 1-2 years of experience, but I have seen it also with people that have been in the software industry for years, specially when the job market is difficult. Testing has long been considered the lowest step in the career ladder in software development (together with customer support), and there&#039;s plenty of people that get a job as a tester only as a means to move to development as soon as they have the chance. Obviously, this is not just the fault of the candidate (applying to a job he/she doesn&#039;t really want in the first place), but the fault of whoever manager hiring that person. It preserves and propagates the idea that anyone can do the job, that there&#039;s no special skills required to be a good tester, and that mediocrity is acceptable and therefore easily replaceable (and viceversa). 

I find as well that recruiting firms are part of the reason so many inadequate candidates are presented to companies looking for a tester. I once had an interview with a candidate that lasted  an impressive 3 minutes: first question I asked was &quot;why do you want to work in testing?&quot;, and the answer I got was something like &quot;testing? Hmmm..., well doing the same thing over and over is a bit boring, isn&#039;t it?&quot;. The candidate (an experienced programmer) was sent by our recruiting agency on the basis that, on her resume, she had done unit testing on previous jobs (and the interview scheduled by my manager, before I actually had read the resume. Fortunately he realized the mistake as well and didn&#039;t happen again). Many recruiting agencies specialized in technical recruitment have no idea of what they should look for when asked to fill a tester role; this together with a funky manager that will hire the first person that comes along has resulted in a lot of wrong people for the right job, and a lot of so-called &quot;testers&quot; with no passion for testing, &#039;cause they didn&#039;t want to do it in the first place!

&lt;em&gt;Thanks Marta. Great comment. I can&#039;t compete with a 3 minute interview record. I can relate to the recruitment agency experiences and I confess I have made some funky hiring mistakes myself. Testing wasn&#039;t my first choice of career. But I soon learned that my pursuit of &quot;World Domination&quot; demanded too much of my time. &quot;Evil Killing Machine&quot; turned out a wee bit too dangerous. &quot;Tester&quot; back in the &#039;90s seemed to combine the best bits of both my first choices and very quickly turned into a highly demanding, creative, enjoyable and never-ending learning experience. Hopefully other people will discover the inherent joy that we have found in the art of Information Providing. As a more serious side note...I found useful information in this &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.kaner.com/pdfs/JobsRev6.pdf&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Cem Kaner paper&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find one of the main reasons why testers that I have interviewed (and worked with) in the past lack that passion is because they are not actually testers. This is particularly acute with people with 1-2 years of experience, but I have seen it also with people that have been in the software industry for years, specially when the job market is difficult. Testing has long been considered the lowest step in the career ladder in software development (together with customer support), and there&#8217;s plenty of people that get a job as a tester only as a means to move to development as soon as they have the chance. Obviously, this is not just the fault of the candidate (applying to a job he/she doesn&#8217;t really want in the first place), but the fault of whoever manager hiring that person. It preserves and propagates the idea that anyone can do the job, that there&#8217;s no special skills required to be a good tester, and that mediocrity is acceptable and therefore easily replaceable (and viceversa). </p>
<p>I find as well that recruiting firms are part of the reason so many inadequate candidates are presented to companies looking for a tester. I once had an interview with a candidate that lasted  an impressive 3 minutes: first question I asked was &#8220;why do you want to work in testing?&#8221;, and the answer I got was something like &#8220;testing? Hmmm&#8230;, well doing the same thing over and over is a bit boring, isn&#8217;t it?&#8221;. The candidate (an experienced programmer) was sent by our recruiting agency on the basis that, on her resume, she had done unit testing on previous jobs (and the interview scheduled by my manager, before I actually had read the resume. Fortunately he realized the mistake as well and didn&#8217;t happen again). Many recruiting agencies specialized in technical recruitment have no idea of what they should look for when asked to fill a tester role; this together with a funky manager that will hire the first person that comes along has resulted in a lot of wrong people for the right job, and a lot of so-called &#8220;testers&#8221; with no passion for testing, &#8217;cause they didn&#8217;t want to do it in the first place!</p>
<p><em>Thanks Marta. Great comment. I can&#8217;t compete with a 3 minute interview record. I can relate to the recruitment agency experiences and I confess I have made some funky hiring mistakes myself. Testing wasn&#8217;t my first choice of career. But I soon learned that my pursuit of &#8220;World Domination&#8221; demanded too much of my time. &#8220;Evil Killing Machine&#8221; turned out a wee bit too dangerous. &#8220;Tester&#8221; back in the &#8217;90s seemed to combine the best bits of both my first choices and very quickly turned into a highly demanding, creative, enjoyable and never-ending learning experience. Hopefully other people will discover the inherent joy that we have found in the art of Information Providing. As a more serious side note&#8230;I found useful information in this <a href="http://www.kaner.com/pdfs/JobsRev6.pdf" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Cem Kaner paper</a>.</em></p>
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		<title>By: Swamy Karnam</title>
		<link>http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/03/28/we-dont-need-no-stinkin-passion/#comment-100</link>
		<dc:creator>Swamy Karnam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 04:30:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/03/28/we-dont-need-no-stinkin-passion/#comment-100</guid>
		<description>That was pretty funny and entertaining :)
I posted a question on linkedin requesting suggested books for QA folks.  The responses are
posted on http://qadg.blogspot.com

thanks,


&lt;em&gt;Thanks swamy, I&#039;ve just subscribed to your RSS feed - best of luck with ETAF&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That was pretty funny and entertaining :)<br />
I posted a question on linkedin requesting suggested books for QA folks.  The responses are<br />
posted on <a href="http://qadg.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://qadg.blogspot.com</a></p>
<p>thanks,</p>
<p><em>Thanks swamy, I&#8217;ve just subscribed to your RSS feed &#8211; best of luck with ETAF</em></p>
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		<title>By: Alan Richardson</title>
		<link>http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/03/28/we-dont-need-no-stinkin-passion/#comment-89</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Richardson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 22:04:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/03/28/we-dont-need-no-stinkin-passion/#comment-89</guid>
		<description>Gosh - dodgy Google ads - a completely unexpected outcome of using the word &#039;passion&#039; in the post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gosh &#8211; dodgy Google ads &#8211; a completely unexpected outcome of using the word &#8216;passion&#8217; in the post.</p>
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