Comments on: A Short History of my ISEB Software Testing Certification involvement http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/05/04/a-short-history-of-my-iseb-software-testing-certification-involvement/ A different view of software testing Thu, 09 Sep 2010 03:57:42 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5 By: Matthew Heusser http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/05/04/a-short-history-of-my-iseb-software-testing-certification-involvement/#comment-1344 Matthew Heusser Mon, 30 Mar 2009 13:17:51 +0000 http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/05/05/a-short-history-of-my-iseb-software-testing-certification-involvement/#comment-1344 An informative and detailed post - it's always better to hear "here are my detailed experiences with this idea" than "I did X and didn't work, don't do X." On the comments, Shane wrote: "when you walk through that classroom door, you left the real world and entered the ISTQB world" This quote was disturbingly familiar. Years ago, I was a cadet in the Army Reserve Officers Training Corps (ROTC). We did modeling and simuliation of combat envrionments as leadership labortory. These labs were "canned"; there were certain prescribed things you were supposed to do, when, say, you were ambushed or you were reconnoitering an objective. These things were scripted; we were evaluated as leaders on how we performed. And, well, some of them were contrary to existing Army Combat Doctrine - so the cadets who had spent four or eight years in the "real military" and come to college had to be un-trained. We were told "there is the Army way, and the ROTC way. You'll do things the ROTC way until you get a comission, then you'll go to officers basic course and learn the right way to do things." The folks who stuck around (I did not) learned to "put up" with ROTC for four years; it was the junk you'd forget later in order to earn that gold bar of a second lieutenant. Is that what ISQTB is? The "junk" we have to "put up with" in order to get a job in software testing? I am not certified and I see to be doing just fine. Your Mileage May Vary. An informative and detailed post - it’s always better to hear “here are my detailed experiences with this idea” than “I did X and didn’t work, don’t do X.”

On the comments, Shane wrote:
“when you walk through that classroom door, you left the real world and entered the ISTQB world”

This quote was disturbingly familiar. Years ago, I was a cadet in the Army Reserve Officers Training Corps (ROTC). We did modeling and simuliation of combat envrionments as leadership labortory. These labs were “canned”; there were certain prescribed things you were supposed to do, when, say, you were ambushed or you were reconnoitering an objective.

These things were scripted; we were evaluated as leaders on how we performed.

And, well, some of them were contrary to existing Army Combat Doctrine - so the cadets who had spent four or eight years in the “real military” and come to college had to be un-trained. We were told “there is the Army way, and the ROTC way. You’ll do things the ROTC way until you get a comission, then you’ll go to officers basic course and learn the right way to do things.”

The folks who stuck around (I did not) learned to “put up” with ROTC for four years; it was the junk you’d forget later in order to earn that gold bar of a second lieutenant.

Is that what ISQTB is? The “junk” we have to “put up with” in order to get a job in software testing?

I am not certified and I see to be doing just fine. Your Mileage May Vary.

]]> By: Debi http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/05/04/a-short-history-of-my-iseb-software-testing-certification-involvement/#comment-677 Debi Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:04:14 +0000 http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/05/05/a-short-history-of-my-iseb-software-testing-certification-involvement/#comment-677 Sorry it's taken me so long to come back and look at your reply - somehow, life got in the way! Of course I agree with your first 2 comments - I am sure there are many serious developers who have a serious interest in improving both their developing and testing skills (I hope that I was one of them, since I was the "weirdo" who made the move from development to testing...), and I would love to see more junior testers being mentored by senior testers with a view to making testing their profession. Maybe in the UK, these things exist to a certain extent. But unfortunately, here in Israel, too many testers have different experiences. The "85 grade average" students may one day become wonderful testers, but as long as the majority of the (non-testing) industry here still looks at testing PURELY as a stepping stone to development, and the job descriptions are such that you can tell that almost no-one can be bothered to write something intelligent about testing, those of us "who believe" have to try using as many tactics as possible... I have to agree with you also about answering real-life scenario multiple choice questions - the first set of examinees who got my exam all failed! Anyway, it takes me a long time till I stop bashing my head against brick walls, so thanks for your good wishes, and keep your fingers crossed :-) Sorry it’s taken me so long to come back and look at your reply - somehow, life got in the way!

Of course I agree with your first 2 comments - I am sure there are many serious developers who have a serious interest in improving both their developing and testing skills (I hope that I was one of them, since I was the “weirdo” who made the move from development to testing…), and I would love to see more junior testers being mentored by senior testers with a view to making testing their profession.

Maybe in the UK, these things exist to a certain extent. But unfortunately, here in Israel, too many testers have different experiences.

The “85 grade average” students may one day become wonderful testers, but as long as the majority of the (non-testing) industry here still looks at testing PURELY as a stepping stone to development, and the job descriptions are such that you can tell that almost no-one can be bothered to write something intelligent about testing, those of us “who believe” have to try using as many tactics as possible…

I have to agree with you also about answering real-life scenario multiple choice questions - the first set of examinees who got my exam all failed!

Anyway, it takes me a long time till I stop bashing my head against brick walls, so thanks for your good wishes, and keep your fingers crossed :-)

]]> By: Debi http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/05/04/a-short-history-of-my-iseb-software-testing-certification-involvement/#comment-571 Debi Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:15:40 +0000 http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/05/05/a-short-history-of-my-iseb-software-testing-certification-involvement/#comment-571 I found this a very thought-provoking post, and enjoyed reading the slides and all the comments. This is particularly true since I am deep in the throes of writing ISTQB Advanced level questions. My main reason for doing this was because I found the current questions to be absolutely useless (I could say cr*p...) - if a group of very involved, up-to-date, hands-on, highly experienced Test Managers could so easily fail the Test Managers' Advanced exam, it was pretty obvious that the exam had no relationship with reality. (I will be up-front and admit that it doesn't do any harm that someone is actually paying me and my team to write better questions...). So, I have to say that I am ambiguous about certification. The negative points have mainly been written already, so below is a list of my "almost-pros". I'll discuss here ISTQB as I don't have any experience with ISEB and the way that works. 1. As Walter (and Tobbe, paraphrasing Dorothy Graham) wrote - compare it with any other type of training. The certificate (foundation at least) just shows that you are not completely ignorant in the field. After that, it's up to the interviewer to check. 2. As Sarah wrote - the testing profession is still banging up against the brick wall of those who don't see it as a profession. Witness the types of job ads even now-adays asking for "excellent students with 85 grade average, for work as testers" !!!!! If the fact that there are certification programs out there can help even a tiny bit to counter this, I'm for them. 3. The Advanced exams, at least the ones we are creating today, require that the examinee be able to analyze real-life scenarios. They take into account the fact that people taking these exams need to have many years' experience in real life testing. Unfortunately they are still multiple choice, but that just means that they are very difficult to write ;-) 4. The commericalization of the training. Firstly, the ISTQB foundation certificate doesn't need a course. Testers should be encouranged to really learn, and experience (if possible) the profession of testing, if they feel they must do the exam. True, the exam still costs money, but I don't think that's a bad thing, as it separates the serious testers from those who are doing testing on their way to being developers (perish the thought!!). Secondly, we are beginning to see signs that the managers of testing teams who are ordering Advanced training are becoming involved in the content of the training. They are not willing to pay for training that doesn't relate to their needs. They also want to assess the trainer before agreeing to have him/her teach their staff. I think these are welcome changes. 5. Danny asked whether you have to be reasonably happy with the syllabus and certification in general in order to help change it? Possibly. At the very least, you have to be passionate in not liking the current situation, as effecting change is an uphill battle. 6. And last but not least. I think there are positive signs of change in ISTQB. As an example - the old advanced syllabus (2003) was really horrendous. The new one (from 2007), although of course not perfect, is light years better. Maybe there's still hope? In short, it's easy to complain about certification. It's another matter altogether to try and improve it. Well done to those who try, and I hope that we're not being too naive in believing we can actually make a dent! <em>Hi Debi, I wish you well in your endeavor to make a dent in the certification. I have my own suspicions about who will come out with more dents - you or the certification? I suspect you might come out worse. A few comments on your comment though. I think that some of your statements don't help the cause of certification, in the way you would like: - I would not want to stop "85 grade average" students starting their career as testers. I started my career as a 'junior' tester and worked my way up. I hope certification schemes do not stop anybody working as a tester who wants to work as one. I think I started my career as a tester by answering a job ad much like the one you quote. As a junior tester I was mentored by more experienced testers. Essentially serving an apprenticeship. - I could easily class myself as a serious tester and I continually work to improve my development skills. I do not believe that a focus on testing should preclude that person from development. I also believe that serious developers exist who have serious interests in testing and they want to become better at both developing and testing - I don't think certification helps them. - I found multiple choice questions which require the examinee to analyse real-life scenarios, not only hard to write, but also hard to answer since I could easily view more than one answer as credible, but had no space to state my reasoning for that, in the end I would guess and try and mind-read the examiner. - I fully support people tailoring the content of the training they buy to meet their needs. They don't need certification to do that though. Thanks for leaving the comment. And best of luck with your denting. </em> I found this a very thought-provoking post, and enjoyed reading the slides and all the comments.
This is particularly true since I am deep in the throes of writing ISTQB Advanced level questions. My main reason for doing this was because I found the current questions to be absolutely useless (I could say cr*p…) - if a group of very involved, up-to-date, hands-on, highly experienced Test Managers could so easily fail the Test Managers’ Advanced exam, it was pretty obvious that the exam had no relationship with reality. (I will be up-front and admit that it doesn’t do any harm that someone is actually paying me and my team to write better questions…).
So, I have to say that I am ambiguous about certification. The negative points have mainly been written already, so below is a list of my “almost-pros”.
I’ll discuss here ISTQB as I don’t have any experience with ISEB and the way that works.
1. As Walter (and Tobbe, paraphrasing Dorothy Graham) wrote - compare it with any other type of training. The certificate (foundation at least) just shows that you are not completely ignorant in the field. After that, it’s up to the interviewer to check.
2. As Sarah wrote - the testing profession is still banging up against the brick wall of those who don’t see it as a profession. Witness the types of job ads even now-adays asking for “excellent students with 85 grade average, for work as testers” !!!!! If the fact that there are certification programs out there can help even a tiny bit to counter this, I’m for them.
3. The Advanced exams, at least the ones we are creating today, require that the examinee be able to analyze real-life scenarios. They take into account the fact that people taking these exams need to have many years’ experience in real life testing. Unfortunately they are still multiple choice, but that just means that they are very difficult to write ;-)
4. The commericalization of the training. Firstly, the ISTQB foundation certificate doesn’t need a course. Testers should be encouranged to really learn, and experience (if possible) the profession of testing, if they feel they must do the exam. True, the exam still costs money, but I don’t think that’s a bad thing, as it separates the serious testers from those who are doing testing on their way to being developers (perish the thought!!). Secondly, we are beginning to see signs that the managers of testing teams who are ordering Advanced training are becoming involved in the content of the training. They are not willing to pay for training that doesn’t relate to their needs. They also want to assess the trainer before agreeing to have him/her teach their staff. I think these are welcome changes.
5. Danny asked whether you have to be reasonably happy with the syllabus and certification in general in order to help change it? Possibly. At the very least, you have to be passionate in not liking the current situation, as effecting change is an uphill battle.
6. And last but not least. I think there are positive signs of change in ISTQB. As an example - the old advanced syllabus (2003) was really horrendous. The new one (from 2007), although of course not perfect, is light years better. Maybe there’s still hope?

In short, it’s easy to complain about certification. It’s another matter altogether to try and improve it. Well done to those who try, and I hope that we’re not being too naive in believing we can actually make a dent!

Hi Debi,

I wish you well in your endeavor to make a dent in the certification. I have my own suspicions about who will come out with more dents - you or the certification? I suspect you might come out worse.

A few comments on your comment though. I think that some of your statements don’t help the cause of certification, in the way you would like:

- I would not want to stop “85 grade average” students starting their career as testers. I started my career as a ‘junior’ tester and worked my way up. I hope certification schemes do not stop anybody working as a tester who wants to work as one. I think I started my career as a tester by answering a job ad much like the one you quote. As a junior tester I was mentored by more experienced testers. Essentially serving an apprenticeship.

- I could easily class myself as a serious tester and I continually work to improve my development skills. I do not believe that a focus on testing should preclude that person from development. I also believe that serious developers exist who have serious interests in testing and they want to become better at both developing and testing - I don’t think certification helps them.

- I found multiple choice questions which require the examinee to analyse real-life scenarios, not only hard to write, but also hard to answer since I could easily view more than one answer as credible, but had no space to state my reasoning for that, in the end I would guess and try and mind-read the examiner.

- I fully support people tailoring the content of the training they buy to meet their needs. They don’t need certification to do that though.

Thanks for leaving the comment. And best of luck with your denting.

]]> By: Rene R. http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/05/04/a-short-history-of-my-iseb-software-testing-certification-involvement/#comment-527 Rene R. Tue, 27 May 2008 01:43:29 +0000 http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/05/05/a-short-history-of-my-iseb-software-testing-certification-involvement/#comment-527 Excellent! I went for the same experience. My conclusions are that contents of these courses are made by people who probably were involved in testing 20 years ago. The contents are out of date and the examination is made by people with no understanding in evaluation. I argue more than once with the instructor about the irrelevance of the topics and the lack of realism about the real facts of our activity. The answer was always the same..."just learn exactly what it is in the handbook, because the test's question is based on it…forget about what you think!". I needed the certification to feed the ignorance of the contracting agencies. I feel like an apple that as been grown with chelmicals but I was given a label saying that I am organic. We should make a differentiation between the idea of providing testing practitioners with some sort of qualification, and the courses that currently provides these qualifications. I strongly believe that those today provide certification do not contribute to the standardization or improvement of the practice. They are there not because of the validity of what they do, but because they were the first in the market place. In sum; this is a great article. Glad to find in this activity people with their own mind. People who dare to say that the kind is naked, while most are afraid of do so. <em>Hi Rene, Thanks for the comment. I think the exam puts the trainers in a difficult position. If the trainees have come to learn how to pass the exam then the trainers do a fine job. If, as it sounds you wanted, the trainees want to learn more about testing then the trainers have to keep coming back to the syllabus and the rote answers because the exam values that above 'real world'. One step towards differentiating between a qualification and courses that lead to the qualification would require testers to study for the exam themselves. I encourage every tester - if you do place a value on the certification, then study for it on your own. Learn some exam techniques. Learn the syllabus. Pass the exam - or fail the exam, learn from that, then sit the exam again - you will still save money instead of going on a course. Your statement about "first in the market place", rings all too true. Hence the 'need' for a 'global' standard certification like the ISTQB. I could cynically view the 'need' in terms of 'we need to compete against any local certification' but then <strong>that</strong> kind of monopoly 'is' good because then we all speak the one language. Hooray for <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Esperanto</a>. Thank you again for commenting, Alan </em> Excellent!

I went for the same experience. My conclusions are that contents of these courses are made by people who probably were involved in testing 20 years ago. The contents are out of date and the examination is made by people with no understanding in evaluation.

I argue more than once with the instructor about the irrelevance of the topics and the lack of realism about the real facts of our activity. The answer was always the same…”just learn exactly what it is in the handbook, because the test’s question is based on it…forget about what you think!”.

I needed the certification to feed the ignorance of the contracting agencies. I feel like an apple that as been grown with chelmicals but I was given a label saying that I am organic.

We should make a differentiation between the idea of providing testing practitioners with some sort of qualification, and the courses that currently provides these qualifications.

I strongly believe that those today provide certification do not contribute to the standardization or improvement of the practice. They are there not because of the validity of what they do, but because they were the first in the market place.

In sum; this is a great article. Glad to find in this activity people with their own mind. People who dare to say that the kind is naked, while most are afraid of do so.

Hi Rene,

Thanks for the comment.

I think the exam puts the trainers in a difficult position. If the trainees have come to learn how to pass the exam then the trainers do a fine job. If, as it sounds you wanted, the trainees want to learn more about testing then the trainers have to keep coming back to the syllabus and the rote answers because the exam values that above ‘real world’.

One step towards differentiating between a qualification and courses that lead to the qualification would require testers to study for the exam themselves.

I encourage every tester - if you do place a value on the certification, then study for it on your own. Learn some exam techniques. Learn the syllabus. Pass the exam - or fail the exam, learn from that, then sit the exam again - you will still save money instead of going on a course.

Your statement about “first in the market place”, rings all too true. Hence the ‘need’ for a ‘global’ standard certification like the ISTQB. I could cynically view the ‘need’ in terms of ‘we need to compete against any local certification’ but then that kind of monopoly ‘is’ good because then we all speak the one language. Hooray for Esperanto.

Thank you again for commenting,

Alan

]]> By: Edward O'Neill http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/05/04/a-short-history-of-my-iseb-software-testing-certification-involvement/#comment-519 Edward O'Neill Thu, 22 May 2008 14:54:27 +0000 http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/05/05/a-short-history-of-my-iseb-software-testing-certification-involvement/#comment-519 As a fairly new tester at an established software startup (oxymoron?), I am the sole person responsible for pure testing, as a result I've been doing my best to cram information down my mental gullet and become what I need to be in order to do my job as best I can. I was hired based on prior experience in software and it was under the assumption that I could learn to test, certainly no one ever asked me for credentials in testing. So essentially, I could care less about an official stamp of approval from some certifying board who takes my money and gives me a piece of paper. What I want, is to know enough that I can feel I'm up to my responsibilities. I just started to read your blog, James Bach's blog, and I'm now looking at Cem Kaner's videos, I'm starting to look for the books you all mention as being critical to your knowledge and understanding of the testing process and the basic principles that underlie it. I just read Michael Bolton's slides and I am impressed, and it also causes me to ask the following question. If people at the top of the testing community in terms of knowledge and intra disciplinary respect and recognition do not believe in a pay for a piece of paper style of certification, why isn't there a network of professionals at that level performing an underground certification. Say, an online database of professional testers who have contributed sufficiently to the test community and routinely demonstrated their expertise such that they could say, here is an organization that I belong to that I believe in. I don't know if this question has been asked before, I would expect that it has and I simply by virtue of being new to the community have never seen the answer. <em> Hi Ed, Reading between the lines you seem to have a great attitude towards learning software testing. And in managing to find Cem Kaner's video early, you have found a great resource. Networks of professionals do exist so if you haven't found the context-driven <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/software-testing/" rel="nofollow">software testing yahoo</a> group I encourage you to join, if the remit that defines it resonates with you. Other yahoo groups exist, as do other online communities. Physical communities also exist, so Google your local area for software testing groups and hopefully you'll have luck there too. In the UK, I live close to London so can travel to the BCS Sigist meetings quite easily, where I get to meet a lot of testers and compare notes. I saw the concept of an online database recently discussed in the comments thread on James Bach's blog, so you might want to read <a href="http://www.satisfice.com/blog/archives/127" rel="nofollow">James' response to Adam Goucher</a>. But who would define what "contributed sufficiently to the test community" meant? - probably most of the people involved in setting up the certification schemes could probably qualify in those terms. I've certainly felt a need for a sense of belonging before, and I think people achieve that in different ways. For me, reading books like "How to Break Software" and "Lessons Learned in Software Testing" made it obvious to me that other people thought about testing in similar ways to me and I could learn a lot from them. I also have a fondness for Beizer's "Software Testing Techniques" which some people think follows a different mindset, but I still include it in my list of favourite software testing books. Some people require a 'membership badge' or 'certificate' to belong, while others can feel an affinity towards someone via their writing on blogs or in magazines like Better Software or Software Test and Performance Magazine. I encourage you to build your own community around you by cordially engaging with all the testers you meet, including those that hold views you perceive as opposed to yours. And I encourage you to go to some conferences, I gained a lot from conferences. Certainly you can gauge, in highly subjective relative terms, how you compare to other testers by meeting a lot of them in a single venue. You will undoubtedly meet people who you would associate as belonging to the same 'community' as you. I have a circle of testers that I seek advice from via email and phone calls - most of whom I met at conferences and software testing groups. Welcome to Software Testing, Alan</em> As a fairly new tester at an established software startup (oxymoron?), I am the sole person responsible for pure testing, as a result I’ve been doing my best to cram information down my mental gullet and become what I need to be in order to do my job as best I can. I was hired based on prior experience in software and it was under the assumption that I could learn to test, certainly no one ever asked me for credentials in testing. So essentially, I could care less about an official stamp of approval from some certifying board who takes my money and gives me a piece of paper.

What I want, is to know enough that I can feel I’m up to my responsibilities. I just started to read your blog, James Bach’s blog, and I’m now looking at Cem Kaner’s videos, I’m starting to look for the books you all mention as being critical to your knowledge and understanding of the testing process and the basic principles that underlie it.

I just read Michael Bolton’s slides and I am impressed, and it also causes me to ask the following question. If people at the top of the testing community in terms of knowledge and intra disciplinary respect and recognition do not believe in a pay for a piece of paper style of certification, why isn’t there a network of professionals at that level performing an underground certification. Say, an online database of professional testers who have contributed sufficiently to the test community and routinely demonstrated their expertise such that they could say, here is an organization that I belong to that I believe in.

I don’t know if this question has been asked before, I would expect that it has and I simply by virtue of being new to the community have never seen the answer.


Hi Ed,

Reading between the lines you seem to have a great attitude towards learning software testing. And in managing to find Cem Kaner’s video early, you have found a great resource. Networks of professionals do exist so if you haven’t found the context-driven software testing yahoo group I encourage you to join, if the remit that defines it resonates with you. Other yahoo groups exist, as do other online communities.

Physical communities also exist, so Google your local area for software testing groups and hopefully you’ll have luck there too. In the UK, I live close to London so can travel to the BCS Sigist meetings quite easily, where I get to meet a lot of testers and compare notes.

I saw the concept of an online database recently discussed in the comments thread on James Bach’s blog, so you might want to read James’ response to Adam Goucher.

But who would define what “contributed sufficiently to the test community” meant? - probably most of the people involved in setting up the certification schemes could probably qualify in those terms.

I’ve certainly felt a need for a sense of belonging before, and I think people achieve that in different ways. For me, reading books like “How to Break Software” and “Lessons Learned in Software Testing” made it obvious to me that other people thought about testing in similar ways to me and I could learn a lot from them. I also have a fondness for Beizer’s “Software Testing Techniques” which some people think follows a different mindset, but I still include it in my list of favourite software testing books.

Some people require a ‘membership badge’ or ‘certificate’ to belong, while others can feel an affinity towards someone via their writing on blogs or in magazines like Better Software or Software Test and Performance Magazine.

I encourage you to build your own community around you by cordially engaging with all the testers you meet, including those that hold views you perceive as opposed to yours.

And I encourage you to go to some conferences, I gained a lot from conferences. Certainly you can gauge, in highly subjective relative terms, how you compare to other testers by meeting a lot of them in a single venue. You will undoubtedly meet people who you would associate as belonging to the same ‘community’ as you. I have a circle of testers that I seek advice from via email and phone calls - most of whom I met at conferences and software testing groups.

Welcome to Software Testing,

Alan

]]> By: Walter http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/05/04/a-short-history-of-my-iseb-software-testing-certification-involvement/#comment-517 Walter Tue, 20 May 2008 10:18:55 +0000 http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/05/05/a-short-history-of-my-iseb-software-testing-certification-involvement/#comment-517 Well written indeed. I will attempt to present a different perspective here. As a rule, technologies, adoption of technologies, trends and practices in South Africa tend to be up to three years behind the UK and USA. The gap is getting smaller due to the internet and the global village phenomenon. In software testing, however, we are a long way behind. Which means that formal thinking and standardisation is not commonplace. I don't know if it is because SA is a former colony of Britain, but UK standards seem to work well here, and naturally, the then ISEB certifications were brought to our country in 2001 by, who was at the time my employer, and one of the largest testing consultancies in the country. I wrote the Foundation in that year. The benefits we gained is that: 1) at least testers started speaking in a common language (vocabulary :-)), 2) there is a way to distinguish between job applicants with some clue and the fly-by-night job hunters. (Unfortunately, there is a severe skill shortage here and people who can operate a mouse and keyboard are sometimes employed as "software testing specialists".) Although not as vocal as some others about the matter, I am a firm believer in context. I do not believe that certification makes a tester, but the fact that someone is capable of passing the ISEB exams tells something about their ability to learn about the discipline. I passed the Practitioner last year and it was difficult. The handful of certified practitioners here in SA are almost all in a test management/test consultant or more senior role, and are all worth their salt. I also believe that the certifications have developed into a money-making scheme, which is sad. But I am not ashamed of my certifications. Instead, I am happy that I can function in a certification-sensitive context, if that is the particular context that I am working in at the time. You can't criticise what you don't know - which is why I really enjoyed your post. <em>Hi Walter, I thank you for your kind words and appreciate the time you put into writing the comment. Unfortunately, in the UK, the certification has not really allowed us to distinguish between applicants with a clue and fly-by-night job hunters, so I consider you more fortunate than I with that experience. I might feel differently about the certification if it had allowed me to distinguish between applicants in that way. I think the early situation in the UK may have mirrored your experience - many of the early Practitioner candidates work in test management in senior roles and had a lot of experience. I certainly don't think anyone should feel any shame regarding an award of a certification that they worked and studied for. Social psychologists have studied the effects of displaying and promoting the certifications and awards that people have received and prominent display of certificates does have the general effect of promoting 'authority'. (source <a href="http://www.influenceatwork.co.uk/home/default.asp" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">"Yes!" Cialdini et al</a>) Thanks for sharing your experiences and I hope you continue to find value in the certification process, Alan </em> Well written indeed. I will attempt to present a different perspective here.

As a rule, technologies, adoption of technologies, trends and practices in South Africa tend to be up to three years behind the UK and USA. The gap is getting smaller due to the internet and the global village phenomenon. In software testing, however, we are a long way behind. Which means that formal thinking and standardisation is not commonplace. I don’t know if it is because SA is a former colony of Britain, but UK standards seem to work well here, and naturally, the then ISEB certifications were brought to our country in 2001 by, who was at the time my employer, and one of the largest testing consultancies in the country. I wrote the Foundation in that year.

The benefits we gained is that:
1) at least testers started speaking in a common language (vocabulary :-)),
2) there is a way to distinguish between job applicants with some clue and the fly-by-night job hunters. (Unfortunately, there is a severe skill shortage here and people who can operate a mouse and keyboard are sometimes employed as “software testing specialists”.)

Although not as vocal as some others about the matter, I am a firm believer in context. I do not believe that certification makes a tester, but the fact that someone is capable of passing the ISEB exams tells something about their ability to learn about the discipline. I passed the Practitioner last year and it was difficult. The handful of certified practitioners here in SA are almost all in a test management/test consultant or more senior role, and are all worth their salt.

I also believe that the certifications have developed into a money-making scheme, which is sad. But I am not ashamed of my certifications. Instead, I am happy that I can function in a certification-sensitive context, if that is the particular context that I am working in at the time. You can’t criticise what you don’t know - which is why I really enjoyed your post.

Hi Walter,

I thank you for your kind words and appreciate the time you put into writing the comment.

Unfortunately, in the UK, the certification has not really allowed us to distinguish between applicants with a clue and fly-by-night job hunters, so I consider you more fortunate than I with that experience. I might feel differently about the certification if it had allowed me to distinguish between applicants in that way.

I think the early situation in the UK may have mirrored your experience - many of the early Practitioner candidates work in test management in senior roles and had a lot of experience.

I certainly don’t think anyone should feel any shame regarding an award of a certification that they worked and studied for. Social psychologists have studied the effects of displaying and promoting the certifications and awards that people have received and prominent display of certificates does have the general effect of promoting ‘authority’. (source “Yes!” Cialdini et al)

Thanks for sharing your experiences and I hope you continue to find value in the certification process,

Alan

]]> By: Shane http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/05/04/a-short-history-of-my-iseb-software-testing-certification-involvement/#comment-516 Shane Mon, 19 May 2008 23:03:25 +0000 http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/05/05/a-short-history-of-my-iseb-software-testing-certification-involvement/#comment-516 A great read & brutally honest! I'm involved in delivering ISTQB foundation training courses and I'm currently reviewing practitioner training course material. An experience in itself I must say! I have managed, until recently, to avoid teaching an ISTQB foundation courses purely because I have difficulties in staying out of the "real world" while teaching it. Not good if what you talk about is contrary to the Syllabus. I have to constantly remind myself to stick to the "script" or as I tell the participants, "when you walk through that classroom door, you left the real world and entered the ISTQB world". Ironically, images of "Naria" pop into my head! Do I disagree with certification and it's intent? No! Why? Compare the topics and subjects that you cover at university & college. Does it guarantee you know at least something about "IT" in the real world? No, but it does tell me you should be aware of some of the basic fundamentals of technology & software development. Does it teach you how to apply them in the real world? Some would say yes, some no! My view is simply "it depends" because it isn't black or white and while some people are able to translate skills learnt from University to there roles, others struggle! To what level you know and understanding the "fundamentals of testing" only the interview process and a few well thought out questions will, at most, scrape enough paint off the surface to at least see that there's no "wood rot" in that section of the wall! While I'd like everybody to have an understanding of the "basics", it's the definition of what the basics are I have issue with! One classic problem for testing is around our testing vernacular. Get 10 testers in a room to work out how to perform Systems Integration Testing and they'll spend 80% of the time arguing about it's definition. Not exactly showing a consolidated approach and they wonder why the rest of the project team roll there eyes! My opinion of the examination is that it is testing your ability to discern ambiguities in questions and very little else. Try and write multiple choice questions for the advanced ISTQB syllabus if you want a challenge. Unfortunately, "it depends" isn't choice "C"! Can you teach software testing? Yes! Does a 3 day course and an exam guarantee you're a "good" software tester? No! If it did, we wouldn't put all potential candidates for testing roles through a 30 minute exam which is focused on testing the candidates software testing skills, techniques and the basic knowledge we believe they should know. We use a practical set of real world scenarios, in which "it depends" is a valid answer as long as you can describe why "it depends"! Keep those thought provoking blog entries coming, maybe the Testing Gods of ISEB/ISTQB will engage in discussions with those of us that "do the work"! Unfortunately, in my experience, those who live if "Ivory towers" are too high above the forest to know what happens on the forest floor! <em>Hi Shane, Thanks for leaving your comment. I found myself looking for the "it depends" answer when answering the exam questions. The Practitioner exam does try to address this - if the candidate has a good marker then that candidate should do well in the Practitioner exam with an "it depends" attitude, even though the candidate has to constrain themselves to also cover the syllabus and identified marking elements. I have found that even a room full of ISEB certified testers can disagree about definitions. But other techniques exist for getting around that dilemma. So I'll add that to my blog ideas list. And I feel pleased that the blog post has started getting comments representing the perspective of people who feel more pro to the certification than anti, even if not 100% satisfied. Thanks again, Alan </em> A great read & brutally honest!

I’m involved in delivering ISTQB foundation training courses and I’m currently reviewing practitioner training course material. An experience in itself I must say! I have managed, until recently, to avoid teaching an ISTQB foundation courses purely because I have difficulties in staying out of the “real world” while teaching it. Not good if what you talk about is contrary to the Syllabus. I have to constantly remind myself to stick to the “script” or as I tell the participants, “when you walk through that classroom door, you left the real world and entered the ISTQB world”. Ironically, images of “Naria” pop into my head!

Do I disagree with certification and it’s intent? No! Why? Compare the topics and subjects that you cover at university & college. Does it guarantee you know at least something about “IT” in the real world? No, but it does tell me you should be aware of some of the basic fundamentals of technology & software development. Does it teach you how to apply them in the real world? Some would say yes, some no! My view is simply “it depends” because it isn’t black or white and while some people are able to translate skills learnt from University to there roles, others struggle!

To what level you know and understanding the “fundamentals of testing” only the interview process and a few well thought out questions will, at most, scrape enough paint off the surface to at least see that there’s no “wood rot” in that section of the wall!

While I’d like everybody to have an understanding of the “basics”, it’s the definition of what the basics are I have issue with! One classic problem for testing is around our testing vernacular. Get 10 testers in a room to work out how to perform Systems Integration Testing and they’ll spend 80% of the time arguing about it’s definition. Not exactly showing a consolidated approach and they wonder why the rest of the project team roll there eyes!

My opinion of the examination is that it is testing your ability to discern ambiguities in questions and very little else. Try and write multiple choice questions for the advanced ISTQB syllabus if you want a challenge. Unfortunately, “it depends” isn’t choice “C”!

Can you teach software testing? Yes! Does a 3 day course and an exam guarantee you’re a “good” software tester? No! If it did, we wouldn’t put all potential candidates for testing roles through a 30 minute exam which is focused on testing the candidates software testing skills, techniques and the basic knowledge we believe they should know. We use a practical set of real world scenarios, in which “it depends” is a valid answer as long as you can describe why “it depends”!

Keep those thought provoking blog entries coming, maybe the Testing Gods of ISEB/ISTQB will engage in discussions with those of us that “do the work”! Unfortunately, in my experience, those who live if “Ivory towers” are too high above the forest to know what happens on the forest floor!

Hi Shane,

Thanks for leaving your comment.

I found myself looking for the “it depends” answer when answering the exam questions. The Practitioner exam does try to address this - if the candidate has a good marker then that candidate should do well in the Practitioner exam with an “it depends” attitude, even though the candidate has to constrain themselves to also cover the syllabus and identified marking elements.

I have found that even a room full of ISEB certified testers can disagree about definitions. But other techniques exist for getting around that dilemma. So I’ll add that to my blog ideas list.

And I feel pleased that the blog post has started getting comments representing the perspective of people who feel more pro to the certification than anti, even if not 100% satisfied.

Thanks again,

Alan

]]> By: Sarah http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/05/04/a-short-history-of-my-iseb-software-testing-certification-involvement/#comment-514 Sarah Mon, 19 May 2008 11:57:47 +0000 http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/05/05/a-short-history-of-my-iseb-software-testing-certification-involvement/#comment-514 An excellent read! There is a lot of truth in what you say. BUT, when you work for a company that doesn't believe in having a test team, with many project managers who don't agree with putting aside project time for testing, you have to start to raise the profile of testing somehow. Qualification of any sort is usually seen as professional, and often seems the only way to raise the profile of testers. If you are qualified (as the project managers and developers are in their areas) then they may take you more seriously. This is the theory I am trying at the moment, and it is working. So, I have nothing better to use than what we have at the moment. If we can improve it then that would be just great...but my experience is that this is a big group who will be slow to change (and may resent any change being pushed upon them!) Cheers Sarah <em>Hi Sarah, thanks for the comment. You have pointed out a sad truth in our UK industry. </em> An excellent read!

There is a lot of truth in what you say. BUT, when you work for a company that doesn’t believe in having a test team, with many project managers who don’t agree with putting aside project time for testing, you have to start to raise the profile of testing somehow.

Qualification of any sort is usually seen as professional, and often seems the only way to raise the profile of testers. If you are qualified (as the project managers and developers are in their areas) then they may take you more seriously.

This is the theory I am trying at the moment, and it is working. So, I have nothing better to use than what we have at the moment. If we can improve it then that would be just great…but my experience is that this is a big group who will be slow to change (and may resent any change being pushed upon them!)

Cheers Sarah

Hi Sarah, thanks for the comment. You have pointed out a sad truth in our UK industry.

]]> By: Scott http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/05/04/a-short-history-of-my-iseb-software-testing-certification-involvement/#comment-513 Scott Mon, 19 May 2008 01:30:05 +0000 http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/05/05/a-short-history-of-my-iseb-software-testing-certification-involvement/#comment-513 Funnily enough, your google ads banner pulls up lots of ISTQB certification links.. I wonder what the click-through rate is for these :) <em>Hi Scott :) . Sadly not enough to compensate me for my time in the ISEB process.</em> Funnily enough, your google ads banner pulls up lots of ISTQB certification links.. I wonder what the click-through rate is for these :)

Hi Scott :) . Sadly not enough to compensate me for my time in the ISEB process.

]]> By: Marta http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/05/04/a-short-history-of-my-iseb-software-testing-certification-involvement/#comment-352 Marta Fri, 09 May 2008 16:34:09 +0000 http://www.eviltester.com/index.php/2008/05/05/a-short-history-of-my-iseb-software-testing-certification-involvement/#comment-352 As usual, entertaining and thought-provoking post. Reading it made me think about why I got one of those certs, and how my position about it shifted throughout the process. I also ended up with an interesting paradox. My initial intention with getting the ISEB certification was (naively) to see if there were any areas of testing that I was missing in order to be "a good tester". After reading the syllabus, and even more after the first day of the certification training, that objective changed to just having it on my resume as a door-opener for jobs (it was painfully obvious that in most of the subjects, my colleagues and me went much deeper than the training in our daily testing). I soon after discovered that, for the initial objective, it was much, much better to get actively involved in the testing community, which is much more productive, enriching and much more enjoyable! However, having the ISEB was part of the reason I was offered my first job at this company. I am now the manager of the team I started in, and although I haven't had the opportunity to hire someone, if I did, I would not make it a requirement (or even put it under "Desirable") to have an ISEB certification for candidates. I didn't either in my previous job, where I did hire people, and I was very clear about my reasons for not doing so (reasons already expressed in other comments in this blog). I have also been able to question the desirability of the ISEB certification from the day I started, in conversations with other managers responsible for hiring, and also the people in my team; I believe it has made an impact. I wouldn't have been able to do this if I hadn't go that job, which I got partially thanks to the ISEB certification. I tend to see this as a different (maybe more passive) kind of attempt to bring the current certification system down. I'm not sure what the point of the certification is, but I do know that I don't get better testers if they are certified by the current system, and I am not a better tester because of my ISEB. The only thing that nags at me is that this is a destructive attempt. I am not involved (yet, at any rate) in creating a certification system that does work. But I also wonder: is it needed? My ultimate certification is the quality of my work. Watch me test, and if it's good enough for you, hire me. If it's not, let me know why so I can learn, and maybe next time we'll be a good match. Unfortunately, there's still not many companies that actually ask you to test something during your interview. Maybe there should be a certification for "hiring testers"? :D <em>Hi Marta, Thanks for describing your experiences, subversive communication tactics, and alternate strategies for learning. I do not know how to create a certification system that works - one reason why I still haven't written an answer to Danny's comment. I certainly think that a good training course in "hiring testers" could add value (I'd prefer to read the book) but then I would miss out on the certificate of completion. Alan </em> As usual, entertaining and thought-provoking post. Reading it made me think about why I got one of those certs, and how my position about it shifted throughout the process. I also ended up with an interesting paradox.

My initial intention with getting the ISEB certification was (naively) to see if there were any areas of testing that I was missing in order to be “a good tester”. After reading the syllabus, and even more after the first day of the certification training, that objective changed to just having it on my resume as a door-opener for jobs (it was painfully obvious that in most of the subjects, my colleagues and me went much deeper than the training in our daily testing). I soon after discovered that, for the initial objective, it was much, much better to get actively involved in the testing community, which is much more productive, enriching and much more enjoyable!

However, having the ISEB was part of the reason I was offered my first job at this company. I am now the manager of the team I started in, and although I haven’t had the opportunity to hire someone, if I did, I would not make it a requirement (or even put it under “Desirable”) to have an ISEB certification for candidates. I didn’t either in my previous job, where I did hire people, and I was very clear about my reasons for not doing so (reasons already expressed in other comments in this blog). I have also been able to question the desirability of the ISEB certification from the day I started, in conversations with other managers responsible for hiring, and also the people in my team; I believe it has made an impact. I wouldn’t have been able to do this if I hadn’t go that job, which I got partially thanks to the ISEB certification.

I tend to see this as a different (maybe more passive) kind of attempt to bring the current certification system down. I’m not sure what the point of the certification is, but I do know that I don’t get better testers if they are certified by the current system, and I am not a better tester because of my ISEB. The only thing that nags at me is that this is a destructive attempt. I am not involved (yet, at any rate) in creating a certification system that does work. But I also wonder: is it needed? My ultimate certification is the quality of my work. Watch me test, and if it’s good enough for you, hire me. If it’s not, let me know why so I can learn, and maybe next time we’ll be a good match. Unfortunately, there’s still not many companies that actually ask you to test something during your interview. Maybe there should be a certification for “hiring testers”? :D

Hi Marta,

Thanks for describing your experiences, subversive communication tactics, and alternate strategies for learning.

I do not know how to create a certification system that works - one reason why I still haven’t written an answer to Danny’s comment.

I certainly think that a good training course in “hiring testers” could add value (I’d prefer to read the book) but then I would miss out on the certificate of completion.

Alan

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